Defend China. How is it currently socialist?
Some things to respond to (the gatcha questions):
The rapid expansion of capital, foreign and local, and the reemergence of capital accumulation as a production goal in the end of the 20th century
The existence of megacorporations, especially private megacorporations such as tencent and foxconn
the state of labor rights in the aforementioned megacorporations, and the state of labor rights in the industrial sector as a whole
The repression of marxist and leftist protest and critique of the current state of the system
The apparent lack of repression of non-leftist critique (I could easily be convinced that this is just because they’re amplified by American media)
The great firewall (I could be convinced this is protectionism to avoid Western silicon valley capitalism’s supremacy on the internet)
The social credit system
idk i guess talk about the Uyghurs if you want, but I don’t really want that to become the entire discussion, as it has a tendency to be, so if you talk about that, don’t make it the entirety of your defense or attack
and let’s try to keep this relatively civil? Like, a random post and argument between some leftists on the internet isn’t actually going to like, collapse china’s rising economic and political power into nothing. We can’t actually do shit about china, good or not, so try not to make this a flame war?
I spent a few days lurking in the China channel. I went into it hating China, and came out cautiously optimistic, so I’ll give this a go.
The rapid expansion of capital, foreign and local, and the reemergence of capital accumulation as a production goal in the end of the 20th century
So the basic reason for this is that the CCP wants to catch up to and surpass the US, as well as build the productive forces necessary for communism. Marx acknowledged that capitalism is very good at industrialisation, which is why the CCP is attempting to harness it. In general the goal of this is to use capital to build productive forces without becoming a bourgeois dictatorship, i.e. being under the domination of capital. So how’s it been going?
Pretty well, to be honest. First, the ideology of the CCP. According to US National Security Advisor Robert C. O’Brien(1)
“As China grew richer and stronger, we believed, the Chinese Communist Party would liberalize to meet the rising democratic aspirations of its people…We could not have been more wrong-and this miscalculation is the greatest failure of American foreign policy since the 1930s. How did we make such a mistake?..The answer is simple: because we did not pay heed to the CCP’s ideology. Instead of listening to what CCP leaders were saying and reading what they wrote in their key documents, we closed our ears and our eyes. We believed what we wanted to believe-that the Party members were communist in name only. Let us be clear, the Chinese Communist Party is a Marxist-Leninist organization. The Party General Secretary Xi Jinping sees himself as Josef Stalin’s successor. In fact, as the journalist and former Australian government official John Garnaut has noted, the Chinese Communist Party is the last “ruling communist party that never split with Stalin, with the partial exception of North Korea.”
Now O’Brien is obviously far from a trustworthy source. He may be attempting to stir up anti-China sentiment here. But you can at least be assured that this isn’t CCP propaganda. The point of this program is that it allowed China to trade with the rest of the world. When SWCC was started, China was pretty weak. Look what happened to the USSR, even with how strong it is. Look what’s happening to Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia and the DPRK. Embargos, sanctions, and so on. By tricking the west into believing China would liberalise, it seems that China has managed to avoid being attacked by the west during a fairly critical period. This also allowed them to basically capture most of the west’s heavy industry. Now the west has to keep trading with China, because it’s entire economy is tied up in Chinese manufacturing.
Regarding Xi Jinping personally, the NY Times(Bad source, but not tankie propaganda) writes that “China watchers all need to stop saying this is all for show or that he’s turning left to turn right…[moving towards the left] is a core part of the guy’s personality. The leftists certainly feel he’s their guy.”(6) This, combined with Xi’s anti-corruption campaign, tells me that there was likely some sort of power struggle in the CCP, and the left won.
There’s also the typical capitalist argument of poverty reduction, which may be relevant. China has gone from (the world bank’s terrible definition) 66.2% poverty in 1990, to 0.5% in 2016,(2) but I’m not going to dwell on it, beyond noting that generally lower poverty rates are a sign of more developed capitalist economies, which is a prerequisite of communism.
The existence of megacorporations, especially private megacorporations such as tencent and foxconn
The main thing to note here is that the CCP doesn’t appear to be controlled by billionaires, and thus is not under the thrall of capital. Chinese billionaires are often executed for breaking laws, for example.(3) Furthermore, examining their response to covid, China was able to shut down entire cities to fight it.(4) The west has been unable to do this, because that would dramatically impede the flow of capital. As stated above, the goal of the CCP in SWCC is to use capital to develop. So far, it appears that the CCP has mostly succeeded in keeping it’s capitalists under control. Where the west is under the thrall of capital, the CCP seems able to tell capital to shove it when it wants.
the state of labor rights in the aforementioned megacorporations, and the state of labor rights in the industrial sector as a whole
This is a problem. Labour rights are bad in China, especially for migrant workers. There are attempts to address it,(5) which are unfortunately often opposed by the state. I remember seeing some sources in the China channel talking more about how the CCP does support labour action a lot, but since the channel is closed I can’t find the sources. So please do note that while I’m negative here, there are positive aspects to worker’s rights in China. I’m just trying to have sources for claims I’m making.
The repression of marxist and leftist protest and critique of the current state of the system
Since he came to power, Xi has emboldened maoists in China.(6) And there is critique and debate in the Chinese left.(7) A lot of it doesn’t get seen over here, because it’s in Chinese. I would also wager that, because of democratic centralism, we don’t see most of the debate. This is an old source, but it’s an account of a westerner going to a Chinese conference about policy.(8) So there is definitely western debate.
The apparent lack of repression of non-leftist critique (I could easily be convinced that this is just because they’re amplified by American media)
Probably this.
The great firewall (I could be convinced this is protectionism to avoid Western silicon valley capitalism’s supremacy on the internet)
There’s an interview with Castro where he talks a bit about free speech in Cuba, and how it doesn’t apply to people supporting Yankees. I think it’s applicable here. Also, it seems pretty easy to get around the firewall, and no one seems to care.(9)
The social credit system
I don’t know enough about it, but I’ve heard that it doesn’t actually exist.
Uyghurs
Continued in reply
(1) https://www.miragenews.com/chinese-communist-party-s-ideology-and-global-ambitions/
(2) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.DDAY?locations=CN
(3) https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/26/billionaire-death-sentence-execution_n_5393883.html
(5) https://madeinchinajournal.com/2020/06/25/leninists-in-a-chinese-factory/
(6) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/world/chinas-maoists-are-revived-as-thought-police.html
(7) http://ouleft.sp-mesolite.tilted.net/?p=1621
(8) https://monthlyreview.org/2007/09/01/the-state-of-official-marxism-in-china-today/
(9) https://old.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/hutfa5/explaining_the_chinese_kr_community_yes_we_do/
Disclaimer: I did not compile this list of sources/arguments. This was compiled by low_poly_space_shiba, who has since left this server.
the BBC made a documentary on the “concentration camps” that makes them seem like neat schools
https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/e284934a7aab
UN guy visited
pakistan guy visited
https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/422970-pakistani-diplomat-narrates-visit-to-chinas-xinjiang
world bank investigated
China invited EU and they said no
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang-exclusive-idUSKCN1R10QQ
just like they said no to check in Venezuela
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0
American and British imperial pigs explain every aspect of the modern anti-China approach, both goals and methods:
Churchill, 1902: What? (https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-159/wsc-a-midnight-interview-1902/)
Kennan, 1948: Why? (https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v01p2/d4)
Brzezinski, 1998: How? (https://dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interview)
https://imgur.com/gallery/iclU9H4<-relevant quotes
in tweet form
https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1285603816172380160
One of the main voices claiming atrocities are happening in Xinjiang is Rushan Abbas.
She did a Reddit AMA and people found out she’s a complete State Department asset. She literally worked at Guantanamo Bay as a translator
https://imgur.com/gallery/Xo7cYyq<-relevant stuff
Then there’s the other guy, Adrian Zenz:
Adrian Zenz is the expert on Xinjiang Genocide.
He
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works for Victims of Communism, the organization that added worldwide COVID tallies
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he is a Rapturist, he thinks he was sent from God to fight the anti-christ embodied in China
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he has already been caught lying
https://mobile.twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1259300068227760128
basically keep an eye out for the name “Adrian Zenz” he’s behind almost EVERY SINGLE uighur genocide story in the NYT/WaPo/Guardian
there’s also a massive “grassroots” campaign on social media
https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status/1182726991675625472?s=08
this guy basically went and collected samples you can peruse them yourself
another thing worth looking at is just “atrocity propaganda”, that is, how the USA just says horrendous things about their enemies, smearing them with impunity and destroying their public standing before moving into sanctions, then invasion
the classic case is Nayirah Testimony
https://imgur.com/gallery/jYTvY1T<-relevant stuff
(wiki Nayirah Testimony)
other examples
https://imgur.com/gallery/BHb8LOV<-relevant stuff
here’s an interview with a CIA agent talking about how the whole goal is to bribe and cajole journalists into creating an image that communists eat babies
I don’t know how to post video, but if you tell me how I can
“We didn’t know of one single atrocity committed by the Cubans. It was pure raw false propaganda to create an illusion of communists eating babies for breakfast.”
For a more in depth view, check out this doc (also not compiled by me)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/edit#
From Here On, my research
Not about China specifically, but this article from the Guardian(sorry for the lib source) talks about DPRK defectors lying about DPRK
“Cash payments in return for interviews with North Korean refugees have been standard practice in the field for years…This practice also drives the demand for “saleable stories”: the more exclusive, shocking or emotional, the higher the fee.”
“But many refugees say they feel pressured for defector stories. Ahn Myung-chol, a former prison guard at Camp 22, said people liked shocking stories and these so-called “defector- activists” were merely responding to this desire. Chong Kwang-il, a former prisoner at Camp 15, said the fame brought by media exposure trapped them, forcing them to reproduce a certain narrative.”
I’m not saying we should dismiss people’s stories out of hand, but there is a large issue with people creating more shocking stories. due to both the profit incentive, and also for propaganda value
Stellar stuff comrade and you’ve really hit the nail on the head with most of this stuff. In regards to the labour rights stuff I think I have some bits and pieces that might be of interest.
Lower rate of workplace mortality than Australia
http://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/201602/t20160229_1324019.html
Take, for instance, Mahafarid Amir Khosravi, an Iranian entrepreneur with a net worth in the billions. He owned 35 different companies ranging from a football club to mineral water to beef imports, until he was executed by the Iranian government on Saturday. Khosravi had been found guilty of defrauding an Iranian state bank to the tune of $2.6 billion, the Associated Press reports. His lawyer apparently wasn’t even notified before the execution took place. Iran’s fundamentalist regime likes to carry out death sentences by way of public hangings.
Based.
By the way, Xi Jinping did win the power struggle, however a lot of the Communist party is still obstructing his further-left-than-the-norm agenda, which is why he’s running the anti corruption campaign
Google ‘Xi Jinping anti corruption committee surpasses power of supreme court’. Also look at what the state news focuses on when they talk about Xinjiang: they talk about materialist benefits as a way to fight terrorism. That’s an interesting development and signals their idealized views.
Xi also recently nationalized a 100 billion net worth financial empire.
Xi has also been known to be a ‘by the books’ Communist for his entire political career. He would bring up standards common during Maoist and Stalinist eras and invoke them regularly even when they had fallen out of common use.
I remember seeing some sources in the China channel talking more about how the CCP does support labour action a lot, but since the channel is closed I can’t find the sources. So please do note that while I’m negative here, there are positive aspects to worker’s rights in China. I’m just trying to have sources for claims I’m making.
Two twitter threads that imo have good info on worker councils and how the CCP is able to control private enterprises through party comitees within the company.
as the journalist and former Australian government official John Garnaut has noted, the Chinese Communist Party is the last “ruling communist party that never split with Stalin, with the partial exception of North Korea.”
What about Cuba and Vietnam?
The social credit system is essentially Yelp and the Better Business Bureau but ran by the government and giving a score like credit scores. AFAIK, it doesn’t apply to individual people. I wonder if it has elements of health inspection and grading like how some states have businesses put up a letter rating.
edit: oops, this is from 3 years ago…
Trains
The whole Uyghur situation is really overwhelming to me. If feels like I’m either consuming CIA propaganda or Chinese propaganda. I’m willing to believe that the accounts of the camps and the surveillance network within Xinjiang are exaggerated. However, it’s the mere existence of these camps and the mere existence of the surveillance network with Xinjiang that’s damning to me. And it really irks me when people throw around the word “re-education” as if it doesn’t occur to them why that word has a negative connotation.
This will help you feel less overwhelmed. Its obvious who’s in the right and who’s being bombing muslims all across Asia then pretending to deeply, deeply care about them.
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-12-05/Fighting-terrorism-in-Xinjiang-MaNLLDtnfq/index.html
My understanding is that the Uyghurs as an ethnic minority face similar sorts of discrimination, economic inequality, and oppression as do ethnic minorities in other advanced capitalist nations. This isn’t to say “hey look, the USA is bad too,” and use finger pointing to skirt around the key questions, which is a pretty common tactic for those who apologize for the Chinese bourgeoisie (see, for example, everyone posting screeds ITT).
I’d point out that capitalist productive relations breed oppression and inequality and crisis, and China, with its liberalization and reintegration into global capitalism, is no exception. The solution should be obvious to socialists—workers’ control and socialism are the material basis by which we improve conditions for oppressed peoples in China or elsewhere.
Of course there is no leadership from the CPC, or their defenders, in line with this working class perspective. There is only a flagrantly anti-Marxist perspective that capitalism has not yet developed “enough” (how much is enough?) to support socialism, despite China probably having the most powerful working class in history and an obvious capacity to develop under rational planning by the working class.
I defend China a lot from libs, but that’s mostly about foreign policy and the Uighur situation. Domestically, I think they’re pretty shit and I don’t buy the “we pinky promise we’ll be communists by 2050” thing.
Yeah the criticism from libs is bullshit. Fix your own backyard first motherfuckers.
It’s funny because I always hear the accusation of “whataboutism” hurled by people who are in the process of engaging in whataboutism.
IMO, I just plain don’t give a shit about what China is doing. I have 0% control of their country, and the only thing focusing on China’s misdeeds (whether real or not) accomplishes is to distract from things happening in my own country.
Make a socialism in your own country. Then criticize how China is doing it in their country.
Defend China. How is it currently socialist?
Nobody is claiming they are currently socialist. SWCC is not Socialism. China is not claiming to be socialist and MLs do not claim it is socialist. It is SWCC. HOWEVER, we do claim it remains adherent to the socialist path, SWCC is an adaptation of socialism to the current global material conditions. The conditions in the world changed when the neoliberals came up with neoliberalism and globalism as methods of combatting revolution which they started in the Thatcher/Reagan years, they have since then distributed the modes of production globally so that countries are forced to participate in a global system of trade in order to function, this was their answer to try and prevent another USSR ever happening again. Prior to globalisation countries could trade with 4-5 neighbours and get almost everything they needed because all countries kept a significant manufacturing base. Post-globalisation countries must participate with hundreds of others or your growth is crippled. This is what enables the weaponisation of sanctions to cripple socialist countries. SWCC is an adaptation to this, accepting the simple fact that you can not grow without participating under these conditions. HOWEVER, it is not capitalist and Eric Li explains why in the best and shortest way in this clip: https://mobile.twitter.com/Garou_Hidalgo/status/1259288982787162113
The repression of marxist and leftist protest and critique of the current state of the system
Protecting the party. It’s still just as damaging to the socialist path if unrest occurs from the left infighting as it would be from the right. Ultras were not looked upon kindly by Mao or Lenin either though.
The apparent lack of repression of non-leftist critique (I could easily be convinced that this is just because they’re amplified by American media)
Is imprisoning billionaires and taking all their shit if they don’t walk in lock-step with the socialist path strong enough repression for you? This man attacked the 4 cardinal principles of the party, those are:
The principle of upholding the socialist path
The principle of upholding the people’s democratic dictatorship
The principle of upholding the leadership of the Communist Party of China (CPC)
The principle of upholding Mao Zedong Thought and Marxism–Leninism
The great firewall (I could be convinced this is protectionism to avoid Western silicon valley capitalism’s supremacy on the internet)
The Chinese showed incredible foresight in understanding the future direction of internet media. They recognised that online media companies would one day be more powerful the traditional bourgeois media (newspapers/news/tv) and stopped them from operating in their country. All of the major online tech companies are American. All of them would be weaponised to push liberalism within China if they operated there. Instead, China has the same products, but Chinese, not America, thus keeping them from being weaponised by the external forces that want to see China fall.
The social credit system
This is just a debt system like your credit score. It is literally only used for debt/loans. It’s honestly used for LESS things than your credit score is. All discussion on this topic is incredibly distorted.
idk i guess talk about the Uyghurs if you want, but I don’t really want that to become the entire discussion, as it has a tendency to be, so if you talk about that, don’t make it the entirety of your defense or attack
The fact that a single billionaire has ever been jailed in China makes it closer to socialism than anything in the West, and even if you disagree with every iota of what China is, you cannot deny that is fucking metal as shit.
If you investigate the convictions and reasons behind them, it reveals a false equivalency. They have a “kill pigs list” for billionaires.
More general sources 1 2 3 4 5 (a slideshow!)
Some specific examples: Ding Yuxin
Wu Ying - not executed, but sentenced to death and resentenced
Wang Zhenhua (Punishment shoulda been greater) - doing what he is convicted of in the US would meant it gets swept under the rug - Epstein, Trump 👀👀
oop, and as I say that, Zhao Zhiyong
The US has jailed billionaires to.
Who? I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility; I’m just struggling to think of an example. The whole “no one went to jail for causing the 2008 recession” bit comes to mind.
My friend, have you actually looked at the timeline for the reduction of poverty in China? The country has only very VERY recently gotten it to levels of acceptability that the developed world has enjoyed for 40 years and the country maintains it as its key priority for the next 5 years also. Complete and total elimination of poverty comes before lifting the population to the kind of comfortable middle-class bourgeois lifestyle you enjoy.
I’m honestly a bit surprised that a leftist criticism would be “why aren’t they making a middle class fast enough?” instead of “why aren’t they eliminating poverty and homelessness immediately?”. I can only really assume you don’t ask the latter because you know that’s their current priority. Development is not a switch, it is a process. This does not happen instantly, it happens with year on year progress. They are well on the way to completely and total elimination of poverty.
Imagine what would happen if the Chinese government suddenly decided to become a proper communist state with democratic worker ownership, full equality, etc. China would destabilize and its economy would probably plummet since it wouldn’t be able to do all the nasty things that capitalism does. The US would then exploit that weakness and possibly overthrow the CCP and replace it with a right wing dictatorship.
Alternatively, China can bide time building up its economy which will eventually surpass the US (and who knows, maybe the US will collapse on its own). Once China is significantly “stronger” than the US, they can theoretically convert to a proper socialist state without interference.
Does this situation suck? Yeah, very much. I feel like it’s the smart thing to do, though.
