Defend China. How is it currently socialist?
Some things to respond to (the gatcha questions):
The rapid expansion of capital, foreign and local, and the reemergence of capital accumulation as a production goal in the end of the 20th century
The existence of megacorporations, especially private megacorporations such as tencent and foxconn
the state of labor rights in the aforementioned megacorporations, and the state of labor rights in the industrial sector as a whole
The repression of marxist and leftist protest and critique of the current state of the system
The apparent lack of repression of non-leftist critique (I could easily be convinced that this is just because they’re amplified by American media)
The great firewall (I could be convinced this is protectionism to avoid Western silicon valley capitalism’s supremacy on the internet)
The social credit system
idk i guess talk about the Uyghurs if you want, but I don’t really want that to become the entire discussion, as it has a tendency to be, so if you talk about that, don’t make it the entirety of your defense or attack
and let’s try to keep this relatively civil? Like, a random post and argument between some leftists on the internet isn’t actually going to like, collapse china’s rising economic and political power into nothing. We can’t actually do shit about china, good or not, so try not to make this a flame war?
I spent a few days lurking in the China channel. I went into it hating China, and came out cautiously optimistic, so I’ll give this a go.
The rapid expansion of capital, foreign and local, and the reemergence of capital accumulation as a production goal in the end of the 20th century
So the basic reason for this is that the CCP wants to catch up to and surpass the US, as well as build the productive forces necessary for communism. Marx acknowledged that capitalism is very good at industrialisation, which is why the CCP is attempting to harness it. In general the goal of this is to use capital to build productive forces without becoming a bourgeois dictatorship, i.e. being under the domination of capital. So how’s it been going?
Pretty well, to be honest. First, the ideology of the CCP. According to US National Security Advisor Robert C. O’Brien(1)
“As China grew richer and stronger, we believed, the Chinese Communist Party would liberalize to meet the rising democratic aspirations of its people…We could not have been more wrong-and this miscalculation is the greatest failure of American foreign policy since the 1930s. How did we make such a mistake?..The answer is simple: because we did not pay heed to the CCP’s ideology. Instead of listening to what CCP leaders were saying and reading what they wrote in their key documents, we closed our ears and our eyes. We believed what we wanted to believe-that the Party members were communist in name only. Let us be clear, the Chinese Communist Party is a Marxist-Leninist organization. The Party General Secretary Xi Jinping sees himself as Josef Stalin’s successor. In fact, as the journalist and former Australian government official John Garnaut has noted, the Chinese Communist Party is the last “ruling communist party that never split with Stalin, with the partial exception of North Korea.”
Now O’Brien is obviously far from a trustworthy source. He may be attempting to stir up anti-China sentiment here. But you can at least be assured that this isn’t CCP propaganda. The point of this program is that it allowed China to trade with the rest of the world. When SWCC was started, China was pretty weak. Look what happened to the USSR, even with how strong it is. Look what’s happening to Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia and the DPRK. Embargos, sanctions, and so on. By tricking the west into believing China would liberalise, it seems that China has managed to avoid being attacked by the west during a fairly critical period. This also allowed them to basically capture most of the west’s heavy industry. Now the west has to keep trading with China, because it’s entire economy is tied up in Chinese manufacturing.
Regarding Xi Jinping personally, the NY Times(Bad source, but not tankie propaganda) writes that “China watchers all need to stop saying this is all for show or that he’s turning left to turn right…[moving towards the left] is a core part of the guy’s personality. The leftists certainly feel he’s their guy.”(6) This, combined with Xi’s anti-corruption campaign, tells me that there was likely some sort of power struggle in the CCP, and the left won.
There’s also the typical capitalist argument of poverty reduction, which may be relevant. China has gone from (the world bank’s terrible definition) 66.2% poverty in 1990, to 0.5% in 2016,(2) but I’m not going to dwell on it, beyond noting that generally lower poverty rates are a sign of more developed capitalist economies, which is a prerequisite of communism.
The existence of megacorporations, especially private megacorporations such as tencent and foxconn
The main thing to note here is that the CCP doesn’t appear to be controlled by billionaires, and thus is not under the thrall of capital. Chinese billionaires are often executed for breaking laws, for example.(3) Furthermore, examining their response to covid, China was able to shut down entire cities to fight it.(4) The west has been unable to do this, because that would dramatically impede the flow of capital. As stated above, the goal of the CCP in SWCC is to use capital to develop. So far, it appears that the CCP has mostly succeeded in keeping it’s capitalists under control. Where the west is under the thrall of capital, the CCP seems able to tell capital to shove it when it wants.
the state of labor rights in the aforementioned megacorporations, and the state of labor rights in the industrial sector as a whole
This is a problem. Labour rights are bad in China, especially for migrant workers. There are attempts to address it,(5) which are unfortunately often opposed by the state. I remember seeing some sources in the China channel talking more about how the CCP does support labour action a lot, but since the channel is closed I can’t find the sources. So please do note that while I’m negative here, there are positive aspects to worker’s rights in China. I’m just trying to have sources for claims I’m making.
The repression of marxist and leftist protest and critique of the current state of the system
Since he came to power, Xi has emboldened maoists in China.(6) And there is critique and debate in the Chinese left.(7) A lot of it doesn’t get seen over here, because it’s in Chinese. I would also wager that, because of democratic centralism, we don’t see most of the debate. This is an old source, but it’s an account of a westerner going to a Chinese conference about policy.(8) So there is definitely western debate.
The apparent lack of repression of non-leftist critique (I could easily be convinced that this is just because they’re amplified by American media)
Probably this.
The great firewall (I could be convinced this is protectionism to avoid Western silicon valley capitalism’s supremacy on the internet)
There’s an interview with Castro where he talks a bit about free speech in Cuba, and how it doesn’t apply to people supporting Yankees. I think it’s applicable here. Also, it seems pretty easy to get around the firewall, and no one seems to care.(9)
The social credit system
I don’t know enough about it, but I’ve heard that it doesn’t actually exist.
Uyghurs
Continued in reply
(1) https://www.miragenews.com/chinese-communist-party-s-ideology-and-global-ambitions/
(2) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.DDAY?locations=CN
(3) https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/26/billionaire-death-sentence-execution_n_5393883.html
(5) https://madeinchinajournal.com/2020/06/25/leninists-in-a-chinese-factory/
(6) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/world/chinas-maoists-are-revived-as-thought-police.html
(7) http://ouleft.sp-mesolite.tilted.net/?p=1621
(8) https://monthlyreview.org/2007/09/01/the-state-of-official-marxism-in-china-today/
(9) https://old.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/comments/hutfa5/explaining_the_chinese_kr_community_yes_we_do/
Disclaimer: I did not compile this list of sources/arguments. This was compiled by low_poly_space_shiba, who has since left this server.
the BBC made a documentary on the “concentration camps” that makes them seem like neat schools
https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/e284934a7aab
UN guy visited
pakistan guy visited
https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/422970-pakistani-diplomat-narrates-visit-to-chinas-xinjiang
world bank investigated
China invited EU and they said no
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-xinjiang-exclusive-idUSKCN1R10QQ
just like they said no to check in Venezuela
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-un-idUSKCN1GO2J0
American and British imperial pigs explain every aspect of the modern anti-China approach, both goals and methods:
Churchill, 1902: What? (https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-159/wsc-a-midnight-interview-1902/)
Kennan, 1948: Why? (https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v01p2/d4)
Brzezinski, 1998: How? (https://dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interview)
https://imgur.com/gallery/iclU9H4<-relevant quotes
in tweet form
https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1285603816172380160
One of the main voices claiming atrocities are happening in Xinjiang is Rushan Abbas.
She did a Reddit AMA and people found out she’s a complete State Department asset. She literally worked at Guantanamo Bay as a translator
https://imgur.com/gallery/Xo7cYyq<-relevant stuff
Then there’s the other guy, Adrian Zenz:
Adrian Zenz is the expert on Xinjiang Genocide.
He
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works for Victims of Communism, the organization that added worldwide COVID tallies
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he is a Rapturist, he thinks he was sent from God to fight the anti-christ embodied in China
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he has already been caught lying
https://mobile.twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1259300068227760128
basically keep an eye out for the name “Adrian Zenz” he’s behind almost EVERY SINGLE uighur genocide story in the NYT/WaPo/Guardian
there’s also a massive “grassroots” campaign on social media
https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status/1182726991675625472?s=08
this guy basically went and collected samples you can peruse them yourself
another thing worth looking at is just “atrocity propaganda”, that is, how the USA just says horrendous things about their enemies, smearing them with impunity and destroying their public standing before moving into sanctions, then invasion
the classic case is Nayirah Testimony
https://imgur.com/gallery/jYTvY1T<-relevant stuff
(wiki Nayirah Testimony)
other examples
https://imgur.com/gallery/BHb8LOV<-relevant stuff
here’s an interview with a CIA agent talking about how the whole goal is to bribe and cajole journalists into creating an image that communists eat babies
I don’t know how to post video, but if you tell me how I can
“We didn’t know of one single atrocity committed by the Cubans. It was pure raw false propaganda to create an illusion of communists eating babies for breakfast.”
For a more in depth view, check out this doc (also not compiled by me)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d0lynghlCnR6Hs57pypEEhlhHczFVgaYX-TIZD61s_w/edit#
From Here On, my research
Not about China specifically, but this article from the Guardian(sorry for the lib source) talks about DPRK defectors lying about DPRK
“Cash payments in return for interviews with North Korean refugees have been standard practice in the field for years…This practice also drives the demand for “saleable stories”: the more exclusive, shocking or emotional, the higher the fee.”
“But many refugees say they feel pressured for defector stories. Ahn Myung-chol, a former prison guard at Camp 22, said people liked shocking stories and these so-called “defector- activists” were merely responding to this desire. Chong Kwang-il, a former prisoner at Camp 15, said the fame brought by media exposure trapped them, forcing them to reproduce a certain narrative.”
I’m not saying we should dismiss people’s stories out of hand, but there is a large issue with people creating more shocking stories. due to both the profit incentive, and also for propaganda value
Stellar stuff comrade and you’ve really hit the nail on the head with most of this stuff. In regards to the labour rights stuff I think I have some bits and pieces that might be of interest.
Lower rate of workplace mortality than Australia
http://www.stats.gov.cn/english/PressRelease/201602/t20160229_1324019.html
Take, for instance, Mahafarid Amir Khosravi, an Iranian entrepreneur with a net worth in the billions. He owned 35 different companies ranging from a football club to mineral water to beef imports, until he was executed by the Iranian government on Saturday. Khosravi had been found guilty of defrauding an Iranian state bank to the tune of $2.6 billion, the Associated Press reports. His lawyer apparently wasn’t even notified before the execution took place. Iran’s fundamentalist regime likes to carry out death sentences by way of public hangings.
Based.
By the way, Xi Jinping did win the power struggle, however a lot of the Communist party is still obstructing his further-left-than-the-norm agenda, which is why he’s running the anti corruption campaign
Google ‘Xi Jinping anti corruption committee surpasses power of supreme court’. Also look at what the state news focuses on when they talk about Xinjiang: they talk about materialist benefits as a way to fight terrorism. That’s an interesting development and signals their idealized views.
Xi also recently nationalized a 100 billion net worth financial empire.
Xi has also been known to be a ‘by the books’ Communist for his entire political career. He would bring up standards common during Maoist and Stalinist eras and invoke them regularly even when they had fallen out of common use.
I remember seeing some sources in the China channel talking more about how the CCP does support labour action a lot, but since the channel is closed I can’t find the sources. So please do note that while I’m negative here, there are positive aspects to worker’s rights in China. I’m just trying to have sources for claims I’m making.
Two twitter threads that imo have good info on worker councils and how the CCP is able to control private enterprises through party comitees within the company.
as the journalist and former Australian government official John Garnaut has noted, the Chinese Communist Party is the last “ruling communist party that never split with Stalin, with the partial exception of North Korea.”
What about Cuba and Vietnam?
The social credit system is essentially Yelp and the Better Business Bureau but ran by the government and giving a score like credit scores. AFAIK, it doesn’t apply to individual people. I wonder if it has elements of health inspection and grading like how some states have businesses put up a letter rating.
edit: oops, this is from 3 years ago…
