Recently I posted a pretty harmless meme in my DSA chapter’s Discord (see image). It was in response to South Korea’s recent spate of Fascism.
In response I had comrades jump down my throat, attacking me for critical support of AES states like DPRK and China. According to these comrades “there is no real Socialist nation.”
As tempting as it is to quit DSA I think I should stay and try to educate.
Comrades also jumped on me for a comment I made months ago in response to some right wing BS where I said “maybe Democracy isn’t always a great idea”. The point I was trying to make was that Trans rights and other basic freedoms should never be put up to a popularity contest… I’m ok with a state that defends these rights and doesn’t allow a reactionary majority to vote them away!
During this thread, people brought up multiple times that DPRK isn’t Democratic because the Kim’s have always been the figurehead, China isn’t Democratic because “reasons” (racism), China lies about their suicide rates to WHO, etc.
Frustrating. I’ll post more details in the comments.
My question: What constitutes a “real” Democracy? Is it leadership changing hands every few years? We don’t have that in the U.S. Is it secret ballots? All the nationa above have that. Is it that the people’s votes and voices actually change the government actions? We saw this in China unfortunately when people demanded ending the COVID lock downs early. It was the wrong thing to do but done for the right reason.
And is there any hope for these people in my chapter? One of them was basically racist against Chinese people and they seem very set in this “not real Socialism” mindset.
the way how people talk about it, you’d think the only qualifying metric for a democracy is dissatisfaction.
Oh, is this population broadly satisfied with their government? Something like 90% approval? Nope, just authoritarianism! Those people are either too scared to speak out or don’t know any better. Real democracy is when everyone (except private industry leaders) is unhappy with the outcome.
The initial response:
The seasonally conscripted slaves who built the pyramids got free housing provided by the state and more consistent meals than the average free Egyptian. When will you be rebranding yourself as a Marxist-Leninist-Amenhotepist?
Socialism is not about simply providing a baseline of material security for the exploited worker, It’s about ending that exploitation altogether. The only way to do that is to put the ultimate power of decision making, in all aspects of life, in the hands of the laboring majority - something North Korea (and every 21st Marxist-Leninist state) utterly failed to achieve.
I can’t say I’m surprised to see you romanticize and white wash a cultish hereditary monarchy, given your frequent vocal support for the capitalist imperialist dictatorship in China, but I am a little sick of not seeing anyone push back against it. We are the democratic socialists of america, not the autocratic capitalists of america.
So I posted a link to this, just being friendly. “Here’s some reading on my perspective on these countries”
And then this person responded with “Lmao, no thoughts of your own?” which NGL pissed me off. As if your stance on these countries came from nowhere and not constant state propaganda 🙃
Other things I posted:
The DPRK has a Constitution that, unlike ours, has Democracy baked in from the local level: https://kfausa.org/dprk-constitution/
He responded:
Constitutions are meaningless when political organizing is illegal, labor organizing is illegal, and power flows downward from unelected bureaucratic committees. The workers have no mechanisms for control if they can’t freely elect their representives or organize for themselves.
Note I’m the one posting links to more reading. He was just posting these opinions. TBF I wish I had more “hard” proof that DPRK elections are kosher but also doesn’t the UN have election observers to validate these?
I’m sorry today’s China isn’t meeting the personal standards of a 100% Socialist utopia. It has to exist in a global Capitalist framework to survive. It shows one of the two ways to thrive in such a global environment, DRPK shows the other.
I want increased quality of life, lower suicide rates, homelessness and extreme poverty virtually eradicated, etc. I also want to live somewhere that Billionaires, if they have to exist, are not above the law. China’s on the right path!
https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
Another person butted in at this point and strongly suggested China lies about their statistics. It can’t be China doing better, no they’re just good at lying 👀
I’m getting upset again. With “comrades” like these who needs enemies?
A Reddit link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same location on alternative frontends that protect your privacy.
“Lmao, no thoughts of your own?”
I think this person is just looking to fight and feel superior and is ultimately talking right past you because they’ve already categorized you as a mark for them to mock. Maybe you can complain to a moderator about this? This isn’t an acceptable way to talk to anyone in any context.
There’s definitely a “wrecker” element to this that I won’t elaborate on here. It’s like the dude was waiting for an “in” to attack me.
The seasonally conscripted slaves who built the pyramids got free housing provided by the state and more consistent meals than the average free Egyptian. When will you be rebranding yourself as a Marxist-Leninist-Amenhotepist?
Immediately showing their inaccurate knowledge of history in trying to make an example. The pyramids weren’t built by slaves, they were built by well paid artisans employed by the state. There is little to no evidence they were conscripted, and they certainly weren’t slaves, they were construction professionals who also built non-pyramid related projects. They ate better than the average free Egyptian not because they were well cared for slaves, but because they were wealthy.
The seasonally conscripted slaves who built the pyramids got free housing provided by the state and more consistent meals than the average free Egyptian. When will you be rebranding yourself as a Marxist-Leninist-Amenhotepist?
This sounds like some southerner confederacy shit lmao. Maybe this should be a hexbear tagline because it’s so unhinged like you might be talking to a literal child.
laboring majority - something North Korea (and every 21st Marxist-Leninist state) utterly failed to achieve.
“21st [century]” wtf does that even mean all of these countries were formed before the illegal dissolution of the USSR. Also this is just buying into state department lies wholesale and this person will probably be telling you how Hamas is bad™ for Palestine and Israel is a flawed democracy with bad apples. Also this person just declares that North Korea “failed” socialism and gives no examples, likely because any example they would have given would just be debunked (this is common with literally everyone who insults the DPRK, no examples or evidence means they can’t ever be proven wrong and they are right because hegemonic anti-communism)
romanticize and white wash a cultish hereditary monarchy…but I am a little sick of not seeing anyone push back against it. We are the democratic socialists of america, not the autocratic capitalists of america.
Western left only knows how to orientalist and lie. “No investigation no, right to speak” is their motto.
Many westerners come to socialism not out of necessity, but out of disillusionment. We are raised with the idea that Liberal Democracy is the best system of political expression humanity has devised. When confronted with the reality of its shortcomings, rather than narrowly discard liberalism or electoralism, the western anti-capitalist tends to draw sweeping conclusions about the inadequacy of all existing systems. Curiously, though it would at first seem that such denunciations are more principled and severe, they are in fact more compatible with existing and widespread beliefs about the supremacy of the western system. That is to say, when a Marxist-Leninist asserts the superiority of existing socialist experiments, they are directly challenging the idea that westerners are at the forefront of political development. By contrast, the assertions from anarchists and social democrats that we need to build a more utopian future out of our current apex are compatible not only with each other, as discussed earlier, but also do not really offend bourgeois society at large. They in fact end up not sounding too different from the arch-imperialist Winston Churchill holding forth on how ours is the worst system, except for all the others which have been tried. Western chauvinists, consciously or unconsciously, struggle with the idea that they should study and humbly take lessons from the imperial periphery. [15] It is much easier for the chauvinist, psychologically, to position oneself as at the very front of a new vanguard.
