UncleJoe [comrade/them]
“The guy who thinks Marx was wrong” idk who you’re talking about
lol
Theories of imperialism after Marx like Lenin
Why did Lenin consider Russia to be imperialist? It didn’t export capital and himself described it as “a country most backward economically, where modern capitalist imperialism is enmeshed, so to speak, in a particularly close network of pre-capitalist relations.” Was Lenin not following his own definition?
I’d sum up how I feel about this a bit by saying that the best outcome now in the short term would be a negotiated peace
And that I’d agree with
create opportunities for the global south to develop free from their domination.
Liberating the global south from the oppression of foreign-aligned national bourgeoisie by replacing it with the oppression of regular national bourgeoisie, classic
I like how this whole discussion began when I said people shouldn’t be disregarding class analysis in favor of thinking solely in terms of national struggle, and the response has been people that think of countries as homogenous entities telling me about which nation to vouch for :galaxy-brain:
Edit:
Imperialism is an inevitability of capitalism, but it’s not an inevitability in every capitalist country
Huh?
Finance capitalism also developed out of industrial capitalism. Socialism “develops” out of the self-emancipation and self-abolition of the proletarian class. I’m sorry for reading Marx instead of the guy who thinks Marx was wrong lol, I forgor imperialism was a bad thing only evil people do instead of an economic inevitability of capitalism
I’m sure that them not criticizing the one semi-great power not opposed to their existence is because of the extremely socialist character of the war and not because they’d want to avoid biting the hand that feeds them lol
Russia isn’t imperialist, technically or otherwise.
Then I don’t care what un-Marxist definition of imperialism you use if you don’t agree with Lenin
any capitalist war is an imperialist war
No
Renegade
Literally Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin lol
We must support Germany in its anti-imperialist struggle against British world hegemon - Lenin
Yeah, that’s the point. Russia is forced into the position, again, of opposing an evil empire for its own survival, not out of any high minded ideals but by simple historical fact.
Yes
That doesn’t change that a loss for them and a win for the empire would be a huge blow to other countries outside of the imperial core, attempting to pursue alternative models of development outside of US dominated global capitalism.
There are no words for me to describe how uninterested I am in exploring alternative models of capitalism lmao
Financial capitalism as opposed to industrial capitalism, one of which can basically only exist by continued expansion of imperialism and the other which at least has potential to develop into socialism
What the actual fuck is this clown shit lmao, I hope to Christ you worded it wrong
There’s a reason none of the AES states take your position on this
Because it’s in their national interest not to lol
Russia is capitalist too so it’s just as bad
:gigachad:
They’re actively opposing the largest imperial force in the world and losing would be a massive negative outcome, the end goal for the imperialists is not just the massive exploitation of Ukraine by privatization and subjugation at hands of the IMF etc but also of Russia itself. If Russia falls they’ll be forced once again to live the shock doctrine of the 90s, and China will end up completely encircled. A strategic loss for the west on the other hand means the emergence of an alternative to the global economic system where US dollars rule the world, which will immensely benefit the entire global south.
There is no outcome of the war that threatens the US or NATO or Russia for that matter, unless you somehow think Ukraine is gonna march all the way to Moscow lmao. The biggest damage done to NATO countries during the course of this war has been at the hands of NATO themselves
You haven’t made any decent case for Russia doing imperialism (which they don’t really, not as Marxists understand the concept),
I love using the most myopic definition of imperialism possible lmao. Tsarist Russia had not exported one iota of capital and was leagues behind other imperialist countries, yet Lenin recognized it as an imperialist power, why do you think that is? What would you call Russia exerting control over its former sphere of influence trying to ensure markets for its energy exports? And that’s ignoring Russia’s presence in Central Asia
Any capitalist war is an imperialist war, Russia trying to assert its control back onto its former backyard is imperialism, how is this controversial lmao. Do you consider the Tsarist Empire to be imperialist or do they pale in comparison to the British unipolar world order?
the conflict needs to be seen in its historical context to be able to recognize whether one faction or another is a historically progressive force, as opposed to a reactionary force.
Kautsky
In the conflict between the Union and the Confederacy for example,
What the actual fuck lmao. The North was a progressive force because they would have abolished slavery, the current conflict is between two indistinguishable models of capitalism. There is exactly no progressive outcome for this war.
le multipolarity
The biggest meme I fell for. A multipolar world order of cooperating countries would be the nightmare scenario for socialism, the point is to seize the opportunity to gain ground while the bourgeoisie is disunited, and that moment is right now. And that’s beside the point that there is no outcome of the war that threatens the US world order, at most you can view the conflict even happening as a symptom of a slipping hegemon.
multipolar world order which […] is far preferable for the global south
No shit that the local bourgeoisie would prefer more wiggle room than submitting to US imperialism all the time. There’s a reason Russia is beating the multipolarity drum so eagerly, they’ve been excluded by the US from the unipolar world order so the only option is to directly carve breathing room for Russia.
and more conducive to building socialism
I want you to answer to me, in detail, where you are building socialism right now, and what you think “building” socialism entails
Russia […] opposing imperialism
Surreal
Russia being defeated by NATO would be an absolutely disastrous setback for the workers of the world tbh.
The conflict has exactly zero impact on the workers of the world, you can view it as a symptom of the declining US world order but it most certainly is not a cause of it
