cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/11258523
American Democrats try not to support a fascist agenda challenge (impossible)
I wish I had a cookie for every time a Democrat told me the concentration camps are good ackshually
Fuck your border and your president
American liberals are fascists. We get it. Hilarious. If this is your version of left unity, you might consider a rethink.
they enable it en masse, even if they are not fascists themselves. They do not question the status quo and are the “good cop” to the rep “bad cop”
also in what world are liberals and socdems considered socialists?
I rather imagine socdems consider themselves socialists, probably not liberals though. But we weren’t having that discussion, so I guess you were just bringing attention to your community rules in a passive aggressive sort of way? Fair enough I guess.
I’ve just noticed things getting way too tribal lately and the communist/socialist left seems hell bent on fighting with the liberals instead of the conservatives. Personally, I think it’s counterproductive to dunk on the liberals when there’s so many actual fascists around, and it’s getting a bit tiring. Have they as a party moved too far to the right? Definitely. Would it be a step in the right direction if people like Bernie Sanders got a chance to make a difference? Definitely. Would it be far enough? Almost certainly not, but you know, this is the US we’re talking about, they’re never going to go fully socialist. You’ve got to have some level of pragmatism if you want to get any movement back to the left.
If someone is socially progressive and anti-authoritarian, then I don’t need to know much else about their politics, I’ll make the assumption they are probably a decent person. I really don’t care if someone labels themselves a socialist, a liberal or an anarchist, or any of the dozens of atomistic political groupings on the left, or if they don’t give a shit about politics. If they are trying to improve the current state of society in whatever way they are able, then they really don’t deserve to get dunked on. It’s mean spirited and counterproductive and there’s too much hate going around.
I mean, what’s your end goal with this strategy of hating on the not-quite-left-enough? I genuinely don’t understand it.
hmm ok where to start
first of all, I’m sorry if my
In what world are liberals and socdems considered socialists?
seemed like a passive aggressive reminder of the com’s rules, since it was not meant as such but rather an honest expression of opinion, that liberals and so called social democrats could not be further away from socialism than conservatives.
Consider this: socialism (by it’s non-revisionist defenition) is the public ownership or democratic control over the economy by working ppl (instead of ppl who own for a living as it is now).
Liberals and “socdems” have accepted the neoliberal economic base and have long given up on actually overcoming it. Unlike their openly reactionary or conservative counterparts (or rather brethren in defense of financial capital), however, they do a ton of virtue signaling and fluffy talking about how they’re going to fix things.
The Republicans act as the stick of capital, while the Democrats as it’s carrot.
From them you’ll get nothing but token concessions at best (like some of their domestic policies) and reactionary politics with a nice paint job at worst (like their foreign policies. They still have us imperialism at heart, even if they might put on a silk glove on the iron fist that the Republicans use, it hurts just as much in the global south).
To quote X:
The white liberal is the most dangerous thing in the entire wester hemisphere. He is the most deceitful, he’s like a fox. And a fox is always more dangerous in the forest than the wolf. You can see the wolf coming, you know what he is up to. But the fox will fool you. He comes at you with his mouth shaped in such a way, that even though you see his teeth, you think he is smiling.
All their supposed progress and opposition to capital only reinforces and propels capitalism, alleviating the need for fascism just for a little longer (which arises for the ruling classes when the majority of the population grows disillusioned with their lies, be they conservative or “progressive”). In the end only legitimizing the underlying framework, without ever threatening it.
Now don’t get me wrong, in the USA the dictatorship of capital reigns supreme and manifests in essentially two wings of the same party (“The United States is a one-party state, but with typical us opulence, they have two of them.”), swapping the mask of opposition every once in a while (good cop, bad cop). Under such conditions I also would vote for the Democratic party. However the apologetic attitude of “Vote for the Dems, it’ll gradually solve our problems and save our democracy from the reps”, which translates in all the agitprop efforts being put into electing one rich corrupt old man over another, takes energy away from the real socialist struggle: not fighting the symptoms, but taking the problem that is capitalism by the root and ripping it out. You can vote all you like, you will still live under dictatorship of capital…
As Berthold Brecht said:
Those who do not want to give up the private ownership of the means of production will not be able to get rid of fascism, but need it
In other words: fascism is a removedd, protective form which capitalism relies on, when it can no longer fool the people and keep them docile with liberalism
(just to clarify on my use of quotes: I do not think of the people I quote as some form of authority to appeal to in mediation. It’s just when I remember what someone else has already put into words (much better than I ever could) smth relevant to the discussion, I like to use it directly and give credit (when I can remember who said it) instead of rephrasing it.)
tl;dr: the distinction between dems and reps is not one of “left/right” but rather one of “right/further right”.
And the distinction between socialist on the one and liberals (and their socdem variety), revisionists, and outright reactionaries in a red coating on the other side, is not a case of leftist infighting but the distinction between the collaborators of capital and it’s enemy’s.
You can still vote for the Dems, just don’t waste your (and the peoples) energy on creating the illusion that they’ll be anything other but a temporary breathing stop in late stage capitalism’s road to fascism.
Such disingenuous horse shit.
Fuck immigration, I guess. Let’s just leave the doors wide open and allow free access to public services, housing, medical, whatever with no accounting.
Any effort at bookkeeping or immigration control is apparently inhumane. You want these people to stand in line and fill out paperwork? You may as well be throwing them in cages yourself.